Carmen recently spoke with Dr. Ian Hutchinson, Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering at MIT and a prolific author, about scientism and the fruit it is producing during Covid-19. Take the time to listen and be reminded where our true hope lies.

Transcript (begins at 21:51):

Carmen LaBerge:

We’re all paying a lot of attention now to what scientists are saying, particularly those in epidemiology and immunology and pharmaceuticals and we’re paying attention in ways that maybe we were not paying attention just a few months ago. There are those however who we would call scientists who’ve been paying attention to such things all along, and we want to talk with a scientist about not only science and our right relationship to it as Christians, but also the rise of scientism and where we see evidence of it in the culture today. Joining me now, Ian Hutchinson he’s a Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering at MIT. He’s the author of a number of books. One of them Can a Scientist Believe in Miracles? An MIT Professor Answers Questions on God and Science. Dr. Hutchinson, welcome to Mornings with Carmen.

Ian Hutchinson:

Thank you. It’s a great pleasure to be with you.

Carmen LaBerge:

So I’m tempted to ask you where in the universe there are temperatures higher than the center of the sun, but we will get there at the end of our conversation. Here at the beginning let’s start with a conversation that distinguishes science from scientism.

Ian Hutchinson:

Yeah, probably we should say what is meant by scientism. Scientism basically is the belief that science is all the real knowledge there is. It’s a very widespread belief, very often not articulated, very often taken for granted. It’s what we derive from the tremendous success of science. And I’m a scientist and I value science very highly. I’ve done science throughout my entire career. And I think it’s very important and we should listen to it, but I don’t think that science is all the real knowledge there is. I think there’s lots of other important knowledge that we need to depend on and that should be recognized.

Carmen LaBerge:

Okay. So if you and I were going to talk with a person who is operating out of a worldview that says science is all the real knowledge that there is, that is going to be a person who limits the scope of what is knowable to that which can be experienced or observed versus a person who would acknowledge the reality that there are things beyond that which we can see, hear, taste, touch, smell. Am I right?

Ian Hutchinson:

Yeah.

Carmen LaBerge:

So there’s naturalism and supernaturalism maybe, okay. 

Ian Hutchinson:

That’s basically right. And natural science is trying to find out about the world in so far as it is reproducible and can be described with a kind of clarity that you get from measurements and mathematics and systematic organization of one’s information. And that’s a very important way of finding out about the world and the world that we live in, the gift of God to us is a world that’s orderly and comprehensible and reliable. And that’s part of what we expect, but there are many things that don’t lend themselves to description in that sort of way. If you ask questions, like how did Julius Caesar die? Or what makes Johann Sebastian Bach’s music so brilliant? Or is capital punishment just? Or how can we avoid World War III? Or what’s the right thing to do about COVID-19? Those are questions that science can’t really answer.

Carmen LaBerge:

Because they require what you and I might describe as wisdom.

Ian Hutchinson:

They require an understanding, a depth of complexity that escapes the reproducible aspects of the world that science is addressing. I mean, there are those who think eventually we will have a scientific answer to those questions, but they’re mistaken. And the reason is basically because many things in our lives are not reproducible. For example, history is not reproducible. Many things in our lives don’t possess the kind of clarity that enables one to measure them like the beauty of a sunset or the love of a mother. And those kinds of things are not things which can be described in the way that natural sciences work.

Carmen LaBerge:

Right. I am talking with Dr. Ian Hutchinson and we are talking about the conversation that’s going on in the culture today, often below the surface of the actual conversation. And so what we’re trying to do is help us see some things that are assumed by many of those who are reporting today on the headline news of the day, and many of those making news today. And so we’re trying to understand the relationship of science to our lives, as well as really the worship of science, which we would describe as scientism which elevates science to that of the all-knowing position. The all that is knowable can be known through science. That would be sort of a short form way of describing scientism. So Professor Hutchinson how do you, as a scientist respond when people would say that Christians are anti-science?

Ian Hutchinson:

Well, I do think that there are Christians who are nervous about science and what it tells us. I think there are sometimes good reasons for that. And I think that when scientism is put forward as being a discovery of science, which of course it isn’t, it can’t possibly be then that nervousness is well justified. But broadly speaking, Christians ought not to be afraid of science. And in fact, science as a whole as it’s grown up in the modern world has a great deal that it owes to Christians and to Christianity. I mean, the very birth of science in the 16th and 17th century was largely enabled by the Christian worldview that existed in those days. And throughout the succeeding centuries, Christians have been extremely important players in science throughout the centuries and even up until today.

And so Christians should not be afraid of science but they should maintain and continue to recognize that there are very important things in the world that in the end science can’t investigate or discover or describe. And so they should resist the scientism that is very often imposed upon our society by those who emphasize science is important. I don’t want to minimize how important science is. I think it’s tremendously important knowledge and knowing about the world that we live in is of course, something we should aim to do very clearly and we should aim to do it thoughtfully. And what science discovers is very powerful. I mean, if you want to connect a smart phone to a cell tower by radio waves, you better design it in accordance with Maxwell’s Equations, which are the equations that govern electromagnetism, otherwise it won’t work. So science does have very important or authority about some things that we should listen to, but it can’t tell you how to live your life or answer moral dilemmas.

Carmen LaBerge:

Which I think is why… I mean, I shouldn’t be surprised, but I continue to be surprised when words like hope are claimed by the scientific community or the community that would describe itself as advancing science and seeking answers in science. And so I think that particularly like recently pharmaceutical companies describing the ultimate hope that they intend to deliver when they discover an effective vaccine for the coronavirus. I mean, they are asking us to put our hope in something that is at this point, still unknown. A vaccine related to a particular virus. When we come back, can we just talk about language a little bit, and some of the words that you see emerging and maybe the seeds of scientism and when they were planted, because that’s what’s bearing fruit right now.And so I think that sometimes we see the fruit and it helps us to understand what the seeds of that are in our cultural conversations. Could we do that?

Ian Hutchinson:

Sure, absolutely. 

Carmen LaBerge:

All right. That’s the soil that we’re going to till next with Dr. Ian Hutchinson, we’ll be right back.

(singing).

Continuing my conversation with Dr. Ian Hutchinson, Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering at MIT. He’s a plasma physicist. He studies matter at temperatures higher than the center of the sun with the objective of discovering how to make fusion, the energy source of stars available for human use on earth. Now that is right out there on the edge of creative thought and reason and scientific discovery and what we’re talking about today you could put in the category of epistemology. How do we know what we know and what sources are we relying upon for that knowledge? And then how are we as image bearers of the living God not only creative, but reasonable? And so what do those conversations look like in the culture today, where many people put their hope in science itself? So Dr. Hutchinson let’s pick up where we left off.

Ian Hutchinson:

Sure.

Carmen LaBerge:

We see the seeds of scientism bearing fruit today. And I guess I’m wondering what those seeds are and then what fruit you’re seeing?

Ian Hutchinson:

Well, let me say, first of all, thank you for referring to my research. That’s an example of a way in which scientists are trying to bring to bear their knowledge and make available because of it valuable things to humankind. Energy is an important challenge area, and that’s one of the areas that I’ve been in. And I think in the present situation with COVID-19 and so forth, there are many people who are working on medical and other technologies that will help to alleviate the challenge that we face in this new disease. But I think it’s important to recognize whether you’re talking about energy or whether you’re talking about disease and medicine, that actually what little we can do is not going to be some kind of magic bullet that solves all of the problems of humankind. And this is where scientism breaks down and is misleading.

The truth is that most of the challenges that face us as humans in this life are not things that can be solved by science. Science can help us in many ways, but most of the big challenges of our society and of our world are challenges that are human challenges, the problems that we face in our lives are very often caused, not so much by the natural world as by human sin. And most of the challenges that our societies face are those challenges that arise from the failings of humans, as much as they are from our ignorance of the natural world. And so that’s the balance that I think needs to be struck science’s valuable knowledge technology can help us in many ways, but there are challenges that those approaches can’t address and that’s where the spiritual and the human come into play.

Carmen LaBerge:

All right. There are definitely people listening right now who are wondering if the energy source in the Black Panther movie of the Wakanda is evidence of your energy source from the stars made available to humans on earth theory?

Ian Hutchinson:

Well, there are many cinematic, manta graphic representations of fusion. The most famous one was actually Dr. Octopus in one of the Spiderman movies. But yeah, we do some pretty interesting and awesome things. We haven’t solved the problem yet but we’re trying to address it. And we’re hopeful that in the long term, we’ll be able to do a little bit more to help us in terms of energy. As far as-

Carmen LaBerge:

Well, no, I would be remiss if I didn’t ask, where in the universe are there temperatures higher than the center of the sun?

Ian Hutchinson:

… Well in hottest stars actually in our lab for many years we had a big experiments at MIT, which I was the head of where we made these plasmas hotter than the center of the sun. They’re not as dense the center of the sun, fortunately. And in all kinds of explosions violent astrophysical phenomena, there are temperatures higher than the center of the sun. We also make in small scale, these things in the laboratory. 

Carmen LaBerge:

Okay. So where would you like to take this conversation in the three or four minutes we have left?

Ian Hutchinson:

I was thinking, we would talk about how do we understand what the future is going to hold within this COVID-19 situation? I think one thing to recognize is that if despite all of the very valuable efforts of medical researches of doctors and nurses and so forth, that should be recognized in this situation, in the end, we are going to come out of this difficulty, largely because of the gifts of God, the awesome functioning of our own bodies, our immune system and the ways in which we can develop immunity to viruses and other diseases those built in.

And that is actually really where the hope lies in these types of situations. Science can do its bit and we’re thankful for it, but the hope is that God has gifted us humans with those kinds of abilities that are built into us. Many people are fearful and are naturally fearful in this type of situation, but our hope lies in the gifts that God has given us, I think. And these are natural and they are also spiritual and so I think that the comfort that we as Christians derive from knowing that God is sovereign and that he is loving and has placed us in a wonderful creation, which science has learned a lot about, these are all the things which comfort me in this kind of situation.

And because I know that God is in charge both of this world and of my life, I think that’s an important way we discover comfort and hope for the future. So I think hope, which we, you were mentioning earlier for those of us who are followers of Christ is found and centered in him. And we’re thankful for those gifts and we’re thankful for all the people around us that help us and that spirit of thankfulness is what I want to bring to bear on my life in this type of situation.

Carmen LaBerge:

Dr. Ian Hutchinson. Thank you so much for what you do every day, the spirit in which you do it, your willingness to share with us. It encourages us, it actually gives us courage to know that there are people so much smarter than we are about so many things with whom we stand in the kingdom of heaven as brothers and sisters in Christ. And so thank you so much for bringing your wisdom to bear on the conversations of the day and for your ongoing research. We pray for you that you would discover how to make fusion available for human use on earth. Wouldn’t that be an exciting, exciting day. So thank you, thank you, thank you. We look forward to another conversation with you in the future.

Ian Hutchinson:

Thank you very much. It’s been a great pleasure to be with you. 

Carmen LaBerge:

Likewise, blessings. We’ll be right back. All right. That was a feast, huh? All right? Aren’t you excited that there’s guys like that? And aren’t you excited that you are a brother or sister in Christ to Ian Hutchinson? I am. I am glorifying God right now, thanking God for him and for the research that God has called him to do and all of the equipping that God has given him for his particular calling in life.

God has prepared and equipped each and every one of us for the good works that he has also prepared in advance for us to do, which means that you and I have a part to play in the body of Christ. Ian Hutchinson has his part, I have my part, you have your part. And as each of us does our part as the apostle, Paul says, “The body is built up and is able to then do in the world, what it is designed and sent forth by God to do.”

And so let’s each and every one of us do our part today, faithfully. And your part today may be prayer. Maybe you are a person who is confined in more than just the COVID-19 description of being confined today in your home, maybe you are a person who is confined in other ways. And let me just encourage you to be a person whose part of the body is to pray and to intercede and to reach out as you are able via the phone and technology to others. It is of great importance that each of us does the specific thing that God has called and equipped us to do in the body that indeed the work of the gospel might be advanced always and in all ways. So thanks in advance for listening to this hour.